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    GTA vs. Out-of-Towns teams... Why the Hate???

    CoachBobTTT
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    Post by CoachBobTTT Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:13 pm

    This is a topic which continues to skirt around the issues and the truth (whatever that might be) when it comes to why teams, coaches, individuals feel it's necessary to knock (female) talent from the GTA.

    It begs to question what the real issue is when it comes to comparing players from the GTA vs. those in Hamilton, Windsor, London, etc... Is it geographical, ecomonical, race (yes I said it!) or the coaching???? I've coached and competed for quite a number of years and the attitude has not changed. This is a topic which I feel can and should be openly discussed to garner better understanding of why GTA teams are deemed unworthy of standing on the same stage as the Out-of-Town "Titans". To think that basketball dominance is measured by what High School teams do at OFSAA. Not every school in the GTA has the luxury of having players who live in the same town since kindergarden play together right up til their graduating high school year while housing six or more Rep players. Most GTA schools are lucky to have two or three Rep players in their high school. And although there are plenty of quality high school coaches out there... let's face it, I've had players come back and tell me that they are the player, captain, trainer and coach of their high school team cause they've landed a "well intentioned teacher" who does not want to see their team fold for lack of supervision. Does the Out-of-Town teams have similar problems. There are more, I've just listed a couple.
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    bk
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    Post by bk Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:39 pm

    coach bob i do not believe it is race issue is this is what you mean, i think it is the fact that many communities play club basketball from a very early age. because of this these girls come to high school with a very strong skill set. instead of teaching skills to their players they can incorporate tactics with these skills.
    club basketball done properly means tourneys every weekend, costs then include hotels, meals and transportation, perhaps( huge generalization here) the costs(time and money) stop potential families from committing to this
    regarding coaching , one needs to look at the top schools and see consistentcy with their coaches, top programs bring top players, lets face it if you are a player don't you want to play with a program that is well coached and successful
    just because you are tall or strong or athletic does not make a you a player, this may be a the problem in the gta but their club programs seems to be progressing well,
    lastly success in ofsaa is not the end all and be all, positives as always being involved in sport is really the most important thing! no hating from where i see it!!
    CoachBobTTT
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    Post by CoachBobTTT Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:24 pm

    "BK" I agree with some of what you have tried to explain, but there is some I will challenge. Unfortunately, I am in my office ignoring work and need more time to continue this plus welcome more insight from others. I will be back on later this evening, once the little ones are out for the count.
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    bk
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    Post by bk Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:36 pm

    works for me coach bob, will look forward to your response, you are involved with the gta scene i am not, give me your insights , i am interested very much!
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    luv2ball
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    Post by luv2ball Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:10 pm

    CoachBobTTT:

    I think you can expand this discussion to any sport in general.
    Many people outside the GTA / Toronto feel that everything revolves around Toronto.
    Many people view it as "David vs Goliath", where Toronto is the Goliath.
    Why do the Ottawa Senator fans despise Toronto so much ???
    Why do the Winnipeg blue bombers or Saskatchewan Roughrider fans love to beat up on the Argos ???

    The answer is quite simple, it's the big city vs the smaller city !!!

    Therefore IMHO it has more to do with Geography than coaching or ethnic race.


    [quote="CoachBobTTT"]This is a topic which continues to skirt around the issues and the truth (whatever that might be) when it comes to why teams, coaches, individuals feel it's necessary to knock (female) talent from the GTA.

    It begs to question what the real issue is when it comes to comparing players from the GTA vs. those in Hamilton, Windsor, London, etc... Is it geographical, ecomonical, race (yes I said it!) or the coaching???? I've coached and competed for quite a number of years and the attitude has not changed. This is a topic which I feel can and should be openly discussed to garner better understanding of why GTA teams are deemed unworthy of standing on the same stage as the Out-of-Town "Titans". To think that basketball dominance is measured by what High School teams do at OFSAA. Not every school in the GTA has the luxury of having players who live in the same town since kindergarden play together right up til their graduating high school year while housing six or more Rep players. Most GTA schools are lucky to have two or three Rep players in their high school. And although there are plenty of quality high school coaches out there... let's face it, I've had players come back and tell me that they are the player, captain, trainer and coach of their high school team cause they've landed a "well intentioned teacher" who does not want to see their team fold for lack of supervision. Does the Out-of-Town teams have similar problems. There are more, I've just listed a couple.[/quote]
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    Post by Coach Clement Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:36 pm

    I think they may see the writing on the wall to speak.

    There was a time when the rest of the province dominated boys' basketball too. But the worm has turned! AAAA OFSSAA is now virtually a sweep by GTA teams.

    Yeah Beal was there last year for a bronze but just go on some out-of-town forums and see how much optimism there is when they face the best of the GTA. They know they cannot really compete. GTA teams are faster and more athletic and that says it all!

    The landscape is changing in the girl's game too and these teams know all too well what is about to come their way!


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    Post by bk Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:01 pm

    landscape may be changing but until the gta in the girls games gets out and plays the best teams on a regular basis they will not get better nor the respect from other traditional basketball centers, remember ofsaa medals are still scarce from the gta, the talent is there it just needs to be polished a little bit more!
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    Post by Coach Clement Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:17 pm

    Hey listen, I'm well aware that the medals are scarce but all I'm saying is that is changing.

    The level of competition has picked up in the GTA. Look at Peel, Durham, TDCAA and TDSB - all have serious medal contenders and competition within their own leagues.


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    bk
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    Post by bk Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:21 pm

    no arguments from me coach clement, just pointing it out, i think we both agree gta girls basketball is on the rise
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    eliteballer
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    Post by eliteballer Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:57 pm

    I believe the girl's season should run the same time as the boys. Part of the problem in the GTA is, it's November and the season is over. Unless you play club ball, some girls won't pick up a basketball until next September. Meanwhile, for other girls across the province, their season hasn't even begun yet. Then there is MDP, JDP, CP etc. How many girls from the GTA were represented on any provincial teams? How many girls go to summer camps? Economics do play a role in the GTA.

    If the season were the same as the boys, then girls would have the opportunity to play longer, without having to worry about finding money to play on a club team. Transportation to practice and finding gym time are some other issues in the GTA. When you play high school ball, the school has to take care of that. Yes, you would be sharing time with the boys, but the school would be responsible for making gym time available for school teams...even if it's 7PM at night. For anyone who says this is not possible...we are the only province in Canada that runs the girls season this early.
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    Post by Xavier Rimrocker Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:22 pm

    Talk to the people responsible for scheduling the referees in each region and ask them if it's feasible. After that, ask if volleyball is willing to accept a combined boys/girls season in the Fall, with the requisite refereeing issues there, too.

    Those are the two logistical issues that cannot be overlooked if Ontario was to provide concurrent basketball seasons.


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    Post by CoachBobTTT Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:48 pm

    Wow! Decide to take a break from Hooptown forum for a night and come back to some overwhelming, "bang-on" responses. Impressive to say the least. As most of you should have realized by now, my intent was to generate should healthy dialogue amongst Basketball's most knowledgable to share and exchange ideas. Those outside the GTA need to acknowledge that girls basketball is steadily developing for girls in and around Toronto and that we can compete. Proof of this is evident in OBA/AAU competition for Juvenile and Junior players over the the past few years. I glad some one mentioned economics playing a role, but it should not be used as an excuse either. Parents and players alike need to take some responsibility and prioritize what is important for them and then take steps to attain it. Many Toronto Rep organizations (Toronto Triple Threat, Scarborough Blues, Mississauga Monarchs, Brampton Blue Devils, IEM, Caledon) have been training their kids from the "grassroots" (Novice) level to not only be able to compete at the same level as Hamilton Transway, London Ramblers, Burlington, etc... but begin to show dominance. Although the GTA can be viewed as the "David", our players and their talents are spread all over the place - something we as organizations first, coaches second are working to correct. If you run a good program, players are not as incline to jump from team to team, organization to organization. There needs to be commitment, consistancy and dedication not only from the players, but also from the organization. I love basketball first, enjoy coaching and training kids regardless of where they reside. Where do the "out-of-town" coaches think their players go when they want more exposure. The GTA of course. There was a time when anything basketball related happened outside of the GTA where Toronto players weren't hearing about it or couldn't access it because of transportation. Things have changed now due to "A" Game Recruiting Services and Phase One Basketball, which organize tournaments and individual exposure for players all across Ontario and Canada. This happens 3-4 times a year and players are not looked at as those from Hamilton, Burlington, Toronto or Pickering... but as an individual player looking for exposure as they strut their stuff. There's more, but I am beginning to sound long winded. Time for someone else to take over.


    Last edited by CoachBobTTT on Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Type O)
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    hoopsdreaming13
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    Post by hoopsdreaming13 Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:07 pm

    I am a Hamilton coach (yikes don't hate me) and have been part of both the rep and high school coaching circles. We are very fortunate to have excellent rep clubs and programs and many of these coaches then coach high school teams which makes all the difference in the world. You are able to assess skill level, track development and goal set individually and as a team because there is consistency in players and systems. We know that our kids will play man to man defense for example and we are able to develop those skills and work on tweaking later on in high school. (BTW - not implying that man is better than zone but I think most coaches will agree that good man principles = a good zone.)
    I have been very impressed the upswing in girls basketball in the GTA and commend the coaches that are sticking with it and building programs. It started with Goetz (where is that coach now anyway) and now EC, Dyouville etc.
    AS far as the measuring stick though - I would have to say that OFSAA is still it.
    I mean don't the Olympics tell the tale of the best teams? Sure there are great individual players in both the GTA and all areas - probably more kids from the GTA are getting D1 scholarships than anywhere else. But the big difference is in those "tweaner" kids usually 4-10 in your roster. Hamilton and Burlington kids seem to outmatch their GTA counterparts in this area. And as a coach - I am very aware of that. We know that the top kids on some of these Toronto teams will score 20 points each - but the game plan is to make them go to their bench where out strengths will play out.
    I am hoping this is not in anyway offensive - and of course is just a general observation. As I said - the GTA has come a long way and I am looking forward to meeting some of these teams at OFSAA.
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    Post by Xavier Rimrocker Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:35 pm

    [quote="hoopsdreaming13"]It started with Goetz (where is that coach now anyway) [/quote]

    Coach Maxim has taken some much-deserved family time.

    One thing that needs to be addressed in this very interesting discussion is the fact that the power base for the boys has been inside the GTA for most of the past decade while it has been outside of the GTA for the girls.

    Does this mean that girls basketball isn't treated equally inside the GTA?
    Does it mean that club ball plays a more important roll in developing strong girls teams?
    Are too many GTA girls teams treated as after thoughts in GTA schools?
    Is less emphasis placed on girls athletics in those communities that produce the best players?

    Please note that I'm not necessarily agreeing with all (or any) of these statements. These are questions I've heard raised by coaches at our tournaments and I thought I would throw them out there.


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    Post by RealBall Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:49 pm

    Why the Hate? I think 2 main reasons...
    1. Jealousy
    David vs. Goliath is a good description. I think that the "small towns" (Hamilton, London) beleive one of the only things they can beat the "Big City" (Toronto) in is girls basketball. They have dominated us in the past. So now they hate on us because they see Toronto has nearly caught up to them in "their" sport. They also realize that at this rate we'll soon pass them.
    2. Race
    I think this also plays a part although most won't admit it. When my daughters OBA team goes to the tournaments in London, Hamilton, Belleville etc. they Never get the calls from the refs. Is it because our team is mainly Black and Asian and the out of town teams are mainly White??? I think so. At these out-of town tourneys the foul count nearly always favours the home team by a large margin, most coaches and parents have witnessed it. Some will say this is just homecourt advantage and has nothing to do wiht race. But I think that subconciously many (not all) of those refs do see skin colour.

    But the way that basketball (recently girls basketball) is blowing up in the GTA, I give it just another couple years before we are on par or pass the small towns in Highschool, OFFSAA, and OBAs. It was nice to see a packed house on Saturday at the Centennial Girls Tournament featuring all those GTA teams.

    Just my opinion on the subject.
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    Post by bk Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:59 am

    i do not believe race has anything to do with referees calls, i have been involved with both high school and club basketball for many years it is my belief that the gta plays a different style of basketball then anywhere else in ontario, it is an in your face aggressive pressing game that many officials away from toronto do not see regularly
    maybe i am looking at life through rose coloured glasses but i do not believe officials make calls based on skin colour, home teams will always get more calls, i know when we travel to the gta we also feel we don't get any calls, is it because our players are mostly white?
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    Post by CoachBobTTT Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:50 am

    Coach "hoopsdreaming13" I'm forced to call you out (but this is not a personal attack). I like many sit on this site with what spare time we beg for reading people's opinion of the game, other coaches, organizations and players to name a few. Some of your earlier comments "boosting" Hamilton as a powerhouse is what ignited this topic to begin with. After reading your latest response which I totally agree with, it's wander you did speak like this in the beginning. You see we are the caretaker's of the opinion poll of those out there who don't know much about basketball or all the drama that goes with it. We have a responsibility to speak our minds, but be mindful of how it may be interpreted by others. Hamilton, London and all the other out-of-town areas should be credited for the fine work put in over a vast number of years preparing and instructing their respective players to develop. I should know as I have had the opportunity of coaching them at MDP and other various venues... their great kids. But then so are the kids from the GTA who seem to get an unfair deal, even though the system they choose to play under was not developed by them... they just want to play like everyone else.

    "Realball" touched on an issue which needs to stop being a "taboo" to speak about - we are all grown Adults or so I would like to believe. Over my coarse of coaching Rep, my teams predominantly black have been subject to racial slurs from parents in the stands, players on the court and refs repeatedly telling me to refrain from having my players play such agressive (as they put it) defense. This occured most everytime we played out-of-town and mostly in Hamilton (don't worry not hating merely stating the hard facts). Now I blame that on sheer ignorance and lack of understanding, but yes race does play a part. Ask Eastern Comm who recently returned from Hamilton and experienced the exact same thing mentioned above. I have witnessed (and overheard) players from opposing teams openly stating they will not shake our hands after a game for fear of germs. What is that? And where is it originating from?

    "BK" response that the refs may not be use to GTA players agressive style to me does not hold water because this is my second stint of coaching a team from elementary up to their graduating year and while my coaching style may have changed some, the one sure constant is our emphasis on stifling, agressive defense and I am not the only GTA coach who does this. I do not want anyone to think that I dislike refs, on the contrary, I think they have a tuff enough job to do as it is. I do believe that attitudes need to change for the better of the Association and Basketball Canada in general.

    Really impressed with all the opinions being offered and shared. This is very helpful. Keep it going.


    Last edited by CoachBobTTT on Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : correction)
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    Post by bk Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:04 am

    i guess unless you live "it" everyday it is a hard thing to understand, this thread has certainly made me look at things more thoroughly , thanks bob
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    Post by CoachBobTTT Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:23 pm

    Thank you BK, so long as you and others understand this forum is not about me.
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    Post by wcbasketball Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:19 pm

    [quote="Xavier Rimrocker"]Talk to the people responsible for scheduling the referees in each region and ask them if it's feasible. After that, ask if volleyball is willing to accept a combined boys/girls season in the Fall, with the requisite refereeing issues there, too.

    Those are the two logistical issues that cannot be overlooked if Ontario was to provide concurrent basketball seasons.[/quote]

    Other provinces find a way to combine both Boys and Girls at the same time. This is also the norm in the United States.
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    Post by Xavier Rimrocker Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:48 pm

    That's fine to write as a mantra but I'm asking how is it going to be done?

    Has anyone ever asked those in charge of assigning referees how they feel about it? Some of us have and they have generally opposed the idea on the grounds of availability. Ontario has a massive number of teams compared to other provinces, both at the high school and club level, and simply saying that other provinces do it doesn't address this fact. Whether we have more teams per capita or fewer refs per capita, this is not a fact that can simply be talked away with comparisons.

    The other issue is volleyball and it cannot be ignored either. They have a split season for the same reason and a move to combine would force them to make major changes, too. Anyone who works in a school with a full slate of teams using the gym knows how impossible it would be to run both sports in both genders at the same time (on top of cheerleading, wrestling, indoor soccer training, table tennis, early portion of cricket and badminton seasons, etc.) so this would essentially force their boys and girls teams into the same fall slot. The question could then honestly be asked: Why would basketball get the longer season and volleyball the shorter one? At least this way, each sport shares the imbalance.

    IMO, the problem isn't splitting the seasons, the problem is that too much emphasis and time is devoted to the boys season while the girls season is compressed. With many boys teams starting in the early fall, the imbalance has become more pronounced. Perhaps that is what needs to be addressed, rather than combining the two seasons and kicking volleyball out of the winter season.


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    Post by wcbasketball Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:27 pm

    I agree with you that the Girls season is hampered due to it being compressed. The Boys start in November and OFSAA is in March. You also can squeeze in a practice or two a week from the first week of school and then increase the amount as time goes on. In the Girls season, you have to get fully rolling during the first two weeks of school or you are way behind. The season starts in late September and ends with OFSAA in November. If you don't go far in the playoffs, it ends real quickly. I have to compress my systems and I definately am unable to apply as many as I would like due to the very small time frame.
    In terms of officials, you can have two recruiting sessions a year instead of one and this will allow you to hire more. There are plenty of officials trying out. I was one of ten officials selected to work for TABO this season and that was out of over 30. It was made clear that there was only 10 spots availiable due to there not being a big need for officials. This definately scared off some potential refs. The grounds of availiability would not be a factor if they agreed to hire more.
    A lot odf schools have two gyms and there are four time slots a day to use them, morning and after school. You could also use some weight training sessions and some schools use lunch as a practice time, though I don't agree with that one. I understand and agree with you about the volleyball but at least we should take a look at the situation. Find out how big states like Florida and California run their seasons for all sports. I am not saying do it exactly the same but at least you can get some ideas.
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    Post by hoopsdreaming13 Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:03 pm

    Don't even get me started on refereeing . . . when they distributed the 2008 "focal points" in our league the number one point was that the girls had matching pre-wrap. Are you kidding me? They have nothing better to focus on!
    No offense taken. I ma enjoying the dialogue. I remember having a conversation years back with the EC coach about how hard it was to get the girls to commit - as so many had part time jobs, little parent support etc. You coaches in the GTA with these issues do a remarkable job. We rarely have to worry about this in Hamilton. OUr parents and for the most part, school administrators are VERY supportive and it makes all the difference.
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    Post by bk Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:43 am

    hoopdreaming13 fill me in on your win last night in the hammer, ofsaa thoughts things like that please! i plan on going to ofsaa AAA will you be there?
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    Post by hoopsdreaming13 Thu Nov 06, 2008 7:44 pm

    we have to win our city championship first!! would like to return to ofsasa for a good showing and we have done better so far vs. 4A teams than 3A teams so if we go . . . maybe a medal? you never know!

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