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The Greater Toronto Area High School Basketball Forums

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Basketballmom
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Coach Bee
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Mr Bean
broy
Xavier Rimrocker
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Dunbarton
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ball4life
Coach Clement
30 posters

    Concerning Issues in Junior Basketball

    Coach Clement
    Coach Clement
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    Post by Coach Clement Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:40 am

    People who were not present at the tournament or at the time of a given incident should not speculate or sensationalize. It is highly irresponsible and potentially damaging to players and teams.

    Some of the posts were ridiculous and totally baseless and unfounded.


    _________________
    "If you want to play then practice, if you want to win then practice harder."
    "Winners find a way; losers find an excuse."
    "A true teammate knows it's not about being better than one another, but making one another better."
    Follow me on twitter: @coachclement
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    ball4life
    Freshman

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    Post by ball4life Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:25 am

    Coach Clement! Have you lost your mind! Who started this post and who changed it's name????????????????

    Sensationalize!!!!!!!!
    Coach Clement
    Coach Clement
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    Post by Coach Clement Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:54 am

    Concerning Issues is sensationalizing as opposed to Year of Turmoil?

    I don't think so.

    I was referring to the posts about the details of the other incident which were started by one poster and picked up by others. The details becoming more and more incredible with every post.


    _________________
    "If you want to play then practice, if you want to win then practice harder."
    "Winners find a way; losers find an excuse."
    "A true teammate knows it's not about being better than one another, but making one another better."
    Follow me on twitter: @coachclement
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    ball4life
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 69
    Registration date : 2008-12-17

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    Post by ball4life Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:31 am

    Coach,

    The best that has come out of this whole situation if there is such a thing! Is that there are issues that folks have turned a blind eye too for so long! Have you really been reading some of the thoughts expressed????

    Instead of trying to slap hands as if in school! Look at some of the really great points raised! Hopefully which will be addressed!! Whatever happened this weekend appears to be blown out of proportion but really read what is being said! For the most the posts that have been made have addressed an overall breakdown with our athlete and community!!!
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    wcbasketball
    Sophomore

    Number of posts : 466
    Registration date : 2008-07-18

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    Post by wcbasketball Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:12 pm

    I think that it is great that many highly respected individuals are discussing and offering very good suggesstions to a very serious problem. I would like to add one that has bugged me for awhile.
    In the past,I have been over ruled by a school admin when I have made a decision to suspend or cut a player for conduct detremental to the team. I feel as if they feel that I am only a community coach thus unprepared and unknowledgable enough to handle situations. I feel that if I was a teacher, then the situation would have been looked at differently.I have had an incident where I wanted a kid gone as he was making it an unsafe environment for me and my kids. I was over ruled and that same kid started a very serious incident on our own bench. We, as coaches know enough from experience and common sense when it is time to discipline, talk or outright get rid of a bad apple. I know that schools have it in their minds to "save" these kids but the kid has to want to participate in the saving process.The first priority for me as a coach, is to provide a safe environment for my kids. Being over ruled does not support this.
    I also have witnessed the "superstar" player who disrespects players, coaches and teachers yet is rarely punished for his/her actions. You find that the school seems to want to be a part of that kid going to the States and maybe on to the NBA. My problem is, at what cost? What I feel school administrators don't understand is that it is impossible to create a team atmosphere when you have an individual that feels he is better than everybody. This includes missing practice, being rude to coaches and players and refusing to run/learn the sets being taught in practice. All coaches know that if 1 player is not on board then the whole thing blows up. I feel that getting rid of that player when all other means have been exhausted is the best decision for the team. Unfortunately, some school admin does not agree with that and will be very upset with your decision.
    I have made some very serious decisions for what I felt was for the betterment of the school and the team. Unfortunately, I have been made to feel that I am the bad guy for doing such a thing and that I am the ogre that has prevented players from playing the sport they love.I always say that playing sports is a priviledge, not a priority and with that comes responsibility. This means attend class, get your grades and respect your teachers, players and coaches. On top of all that work hard and give it your all at everything. I sometimes wish that schools were on board with the coach when it comes to that.
    I obviously am not saying all schools are like this but I know that some of my fellow coaches at schools all over the province have sat down with me and complain that their hands are tied. That is not the fault of the coaches
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    ball4life
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 69
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    Post by ball4life Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:10 pm

    Coach,

    You sound really pained by what happened!

    Somewhere earlier I mentioned the courting of kids as early as grade 8 and the possible ego that egos with that! A talented athlete does not automatically go hand in hand with a great personality! Hands are really tied at that point!

    There are so many scenario's of how things play out! The politics of what goes on behind the scenes is more than likely not going to go away, unfortunately! The inner circle of deceision makers! Again, sometimes things happen that cause all the dirty laundry to come out and at that point powers that be are forced to deal with it!
    Dunbarton
    Dunbarton
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 73
    Registration date : 2008-07-29

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    Post by Dunbarton Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:29 pm

    The buck stops here (at the coach) on this issue. It is ridiculous that a community coach such as wcbasketball, who is sharing their talent, passion and time, is not supported 100% by admin. Perhaps the school coach did not voice their concerns to admin forcefully enough, perhaps they did. Either way vote with your feet and walk. That would not only send a strong message to the community that you are standing by your principles but give you the satisfaction that you haven't had to go against them. If you ever need a programme that will back you, you are more than welcome here :-) As a philosophy/ sociology teacher I can go on and on about the ills of our society and why they are the reasons for the poor attitudes and behaviours but that's not the point. As a volunteer coach (i.e. not a phys ed teacher) I do this because I love the game and the kids but in the end I come first. If what they do goes against our programme's "philosophy" (important that both Sr. and Jr. programmes agree on this), and if their actions are within certain bounds, we give them a chance to self-correct before we cut them.


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    BornToBall
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 174
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    Post by BornToBall Tue Jan 13, 2009 6:06 pm

    Lol, everyone who writes a response is writting paragraphs.
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    Rexdale Coach
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 40
    Registration date : 2008-10-08

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    Post by Rexdale Coach Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:41 am

    [quote=" As a philosophy/ sociology teacher I can go on and on about the ills of our society and why they are the reasons for the poor attitudes and behaviours but that's not the point. As a volunteer coach (i.e. not a phys ed teacher) I do this because I love the game and the kids but in the end I come first. If what they do goes against our programme's "philosophy" (important that both Sr. and Jr. programmes agree on this), and if their actions are within certain bounds, we give them a chance to self-correct before we cut them.[/quote]

    Dunbarton curious as to what you mean by this??? Phys-Ed teachers are not coaches that volunteer their time??? scratch We do not love the game and give up our time as well?
    Dunbarton
    Dunbarton
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    Post by Dunbarton Wed Jan 14, 2009 12:01 pm

    Not at all! I simply meant that I can stop coaching without any repurucsions. I think you'll agree it's an expectation for PE teachers to coach (albeit unwritten) and as such they may end up with a timetable they're not happy with if they were to stop coaching altogether. Of course PE ppl love the game, volunteer their time, etc. In fact because they coach 2+ teams sometimes they actually volunteer their time more than one would think...I'm sure I don't have to tell you that.


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    Coach Bee
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 47
    Registration date : 2009-01-15

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    Post by Coach Bee Thu Jan 15, 2009 10:20 am

    I have been involved with the rimrocker as a player and a coach since it first started and until this year we never had a problem. The actions of one school should not tarnish the reputation of a great tournament. I am not going to comment on the incident I want to comment on what I have been exposed to as a young assistant coach.

    I have learned coaches can’t control players’ behaviour outside of basketball but they can within basketball. If the coach holds his players to a higher standard then the players, for the most part, will respond. Coaches need to model positive behaviour so the players can be expected to model that same behaviour. Some of the profanities I have heard from coaches on the bench directly relates to why players use that language.

    Coaching is not only about x’s and o’s, it is about holding players accountable for their actions and instilling values they can use when they graduate from high school. As a teacher your job is to use basketball as a means to help students, you get paid to teach not coach. Coaches can use basketball to teach many lessons in life, as the saying goes “sports mirrors life” Some community coaches don’t have a clue what their players are doing in class just as long as they can play and play well. They have no loyalty to the school and feel it is not their responsibility to discipline, which is exactly wrong.

    Outside of the x’s and o’s I can honestly say I realize most of high school coaching comes from everything you do off the court. Sometimes tough decisions need to be made and yes it may cost you a win but this will benefit the player in the long run, because there is a fraction of a percentage of players in Canada that will make a living playing ball. Instil tough consequences and the players in all likeliness will not mess up if they really want to play. I have witnessed the head coach suspend starters for dismissing themselves 15 minutes before the given dismissal time, for being caught out of uniform during school, for not showing up to 7am practice, etc... The players we coach are not perfect but they are better off now and will be in their future.

    Coaches can easily resolve the problems in basketball if they didn’t put so much emphasis on winning but instead emphasize winning the right way. Don’t recruit players, have consequences for actions, conduct yourselves properly and model positive behaviours and your players will respond if they don’t, kick them off the team. It truly is that simple but some coaches want to win so bad they do it at all costs and in the long run the player loses out. These coaches will make excuses and justify their actions as well as their players actions in order to maintain a winning product on the court and a losing product off the court.


    Coach Bee
    CoachImgrund
    CoachImgrund
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    Post by CoachImgrund Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:27 am

    Coach Bee,

    Amen! A great first post - here's to hearing more from you in the future.

    The coach you're assisting is lucky to have you on the bench, and apparently the coaches that brought you up in the game of basketball did it properly. If every coach has the same attitude as you, this game would be better off. I agree with every comment you made.

    As I believe Dunbarton said, it's better to lose with winners than to win with losers. We play a small role in ensuring that the people on our team are winners - not necessarily in a basketball sense, but definitely in a moral, emotional, and academic sense.

    Coach Imgrund
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    Mr Bean
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 131
    Registration date : 2008-07-26

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    Post by Mr Bean Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:03 pm

    You have never had an incident? You might want to rethink that as I know there have been several incidents. Also, the actions of one school? Now it is a whole school?

    Coach Bee, a word to the wise, be careful what you say on here.
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    stevelogan92
    Senior

    Number of posts : 1276
    Registration date : 2008-09-01

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    Post by stevelogan92 Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:44 pm

    I dont remeber any incidents ever happening at the rimrocker. Please do share on these incidents.

    Coach Bee didnt cross any lines with his post and i think you are the one who should becareful as to what they say on here.
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    Basketballmom
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 1
    Registration date : 2009-01-15

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    Post by Basketballmom Thu Jan 15, 2009 7:31 pm

    Really need to put in my two cents here. Have been a basketballmom for many years because of my sons involvement with schoolball and OBA's. Unfortunate and shocking to read about an incident at the Jr. Rimrocker.

    On a personal note, my son attended and played senior ball at Mt. Carmel for 5 years. He played at all the Senior Rimrockers and I was present at almost all of his games, whether they be at Carmel or Xavier. I had also attended the girls and juniors and had never witnessed any of these types of incidences. Coaches Rob/Dave Tucci and Jason have done a phenominal job running such a huge and successful tournament year after year.

    Since I was closely connected with Carmel, I would see Coach Rob Tucci running to his office, updating the scoreboard, at the scorer's table, constantly on the phone, etc. If that is not being dedicated, a multi-tasker and organized, I don't know what is. Am sure the same went on at the other venues.

    My son is now playing Collegeball, but he(when he is town) and I will continue to try to make some league games and support the Rimrocker.

    Don't quite understand the incident but hope that all involed will learn from this and will make every effort to bring this to a satisfying conclusion.

    Basketballmom
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    CoachPaul
    Sophomore

    Number of posts : 306
    Registration date : 2008-12-07

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    Post by CoachPaul Fri Jan 16, 2009 9:50 pm

    [quote="Coach Bee"].. Some community coaches don’t have a clue what their players are doing in class just as long as they can play and play well. They have no loyalty to the school and feel it is not their responsibility to discipline, which is exactly wrong. ....

    Coaches can easily resolve the problems in basketball if they didn’t put so much emphasis on winning but instead emphasize winning the right way. Don’t recruit players, have consequences for actions, conduct yourselves properly and model positive behaviours and your players will respond if they don’t, kick them off the team. It truly is that simple but some coaches want to win so bad they do it at all costs and in the long run the player loses out. These coaches will make excuses and justify their actions as well as their players actions in order to maintain a winning product on the court and a losing product off the court.
    ...

    Coach Bee[/quote]

    You're absolutely right on your first point. This was one of the points I was trying to make on one of my earlier posts. I have no clue what any of my guys (other than my son) are doing in school or "outside of the gym" for that matter. It is NOT POSSIBLE for me to know this. First of all because of privacy issues. No school is going to tell me "a communitiy coach" that some kid is having problems in his home or with the law. If they did, they'd have quite the law suit on their hands.

    Your second point "They have no loyalty to the school and feel it is not their responsibility to discipline, which is exactly wrong. ...." is maybe a little too generalized. I personally DO care about Loyola because my son goes there. Maybe some other coaches don't, but I do. I know that the Sr. coaches al Loyola are community coaches. They have been doing that for years. You don't do that because you don't care. What does a highschool coach ever get at the end of the year? You don't get paid and usually no thanks from the players that you sacrificed countless hours of personal time to coach.

    Having said that, I have disciplined two of my players recently. Both were starters and both are no longer on the starting line up. Neither will receive anywhere near the playing time that they had earlier in the year. They disrespected me (as a coach) and some of their fellow teammates and I will not stand for it.

    Even though Loyola is the (I feel) the best team in Peel (we are undefeated and have about 150 more offensive points than the next closest team), I don't care if we win one more game or if we don't make the ROPSSAA playoffs because these guys need to learn a lesson.

    I'm sure that the players will feel that if we lose that it is a big complement to their game. They'll say "you see, without me you can't win". I don't think that these guys realize that they will end up being the losers. Nobody will ever have any respect for them again no matter what team they're on. Kids might continue to respect their game, but they will not be respected as people. Certainly coaches remember (like elephants) who the "bad" kids are year after year after year after year.
    Peel Fan
    Peel Fan
    Sophomore

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    Registration date : 2008-07-31

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    Post by Peel Fan Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:32 am

    Coach Paul, if Loyola is the best team in Peel, why are they 2-4 in league play? Why did they lose to a St. Theresa team that other Peel teams have beaten and why weren't they Peel's sole representative in the Rimrocker playoffs?
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    tart11
    Senior

    Number of posts : 937
    Registration date : 2008-11-29

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    Post by tart11 Sat Jan 24, 2009 12:28 pm

    Peel:

    1) D'Youville
    2) Goetz
    3) Xavier
    4) Brampton Centennial
    5) Fletchers Meadow
    6) Leger
    7) Loyola
    Cool Campion
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    VCforMVP
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 81
    Registration date : 2008-12-07

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    Post by VCforMVP Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:28 pm

    'L' Coach Paul just got exposed.
    CoachImgrund
    CoachImgrund
    Freshman

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    Post by CoachImgrund Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:42 pm

    Loyola's 4 regular season losses were defaults. Not sure what happened but I know that Peel is pretty strict about having to report scores by 7 PM by phone or 9 AM by Internet. Probably the strictest rules out there for score submission!
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    rvd1018
    Junior

    Number of posts : 611
    Registration date : 2008-11-24

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    Post by rvd1018 Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:41 pm

    it wsnt cause of score submission they used a player for 4 games who came from a differnt school and he didnt hve a transfer so he was not eligible


    Last edited by rvd1018 on Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    CoachPaul
    Sophomore

    Number of posts : 306
    Registration date : 2008-12-07

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    Post by CoachPaul Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:43 pm

    Any team can play below their potential on any given day. In the Rimrocker we were cold and we came up against some very stiff competition (like Vaughn). This ended up in us going home early.

    The facts are that in regular season play we have won all 6 of our games. Our total points so far this season is 515, which is substantially more than all of the other teams that have also played 6 games. We've beaten every team by a minimum of 20 pts. We lost to St. Theresa by 1 point in a tournament game. I'm sure the coach would agree that this game could have gone either way.

    I don't think that the Loyola Jr. is anywhere close to the best team in the GTA, but from what I've seen I still beleive that we are one of the best teams in Peel and have a good shot at winning the ROPSSAA.

    The reason we defaulted 4 games is because we had a player on our team that was not eligible to play. He went to a different school last year and we didn't know about that. He didn't play basketball last year which means that if he had simply signed his transfer papers he would've been able to play for us no problem. This wasn't one of those cases were we were recruiting a star player to try to win tournaments. The player in question didn't make the cut on our team. When one of the players was forced to quit (becaue of marks) one week prior to our first game, we called this kid up from our "alternate" list.

    It was an honest mistake and this kid's play did not alter the outcome of any game he was part of, but ROPSSAA is very black and white about this sort of thing. The fact that an ineligible player was on our roster for 4 games meant that we default each of those games.
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    VCforMVP
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 81
    Registration date : 2008-12-07

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    Post by VCforMVP Sat Jan 24, 2009 4:18 pm

    You bring up a very valid arguement Coach Paul.
    No disrespect.
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    stevelogan92
    Senior

    Number of posts : 1276
    Registration date : 2008-09-01

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    Post by stevelogan92 Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:39 pm

    One reason why you blow out every team by 20 points is because you are in the weakest division in Peel Junior Basketball.

    I personally think the reason for all your wins is mainly your son. He is a defenders nightmare for junior basketball. He is a very well rounded player can go inside and outside and does not and I mean does not miss free throws. In junior basketball a team can rely on a player more than they can in senior. The players surounding your son are mediocre at best. That agin is a compliment to your son because he makes them better.

    I also feel you team defence is weak that is why you lost those games in the rimrocker. If your team tightens that up you should be fine in the Ropssaa playoffs.

    No Disrespect coach to you or your team just an analysis.
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    VCforMVP
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 81
    Registration date : 2008-12-07

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    Post by VCforMVP Sat Jan 24, 2009 8:53 pm

    True, your son is the wettest shooter I've ever seen can he dunk the ball in the hoop yet
    Coach Paulie?

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