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    4th Annual Jr. Coaches Poll Results -12.11.26

    GTA_BBall
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    Post by GTA_BBall on Wed Nov 28, 2012 2:36 pm

    Wow, Vaughan over Eastern and Carr after both Carr and Eastern beat them?

    I think Carr should be top 3 as they beat Vaughan by large margins TWICE. Vaughan beat Eastern by 7 in the Carr tournament but Eastern didnt have their big man.

    Bob , did the majority of the coaches put Carr as 4th? Cause it makes no sense at all to me. Carr played very well in the last 2 tournaments. I actually would put D'youville and Carr A tied for 1st.

    Coach Clement wrote:1. St. Marguerite d'Youville
    2. Vaughan Secondary
    3. Eastern Commerce
    4. Fr. Henry Carr A
    5. Bill Crothers
    6. Jean Vanier (Richmond Hill)
    7. St. Michael’s College
    8 Emery
    9. Mother Teresa
    10.Martingrove
    11. Pine Ridge
    12. Wm. Lyon Mackenzie
    13. Oakwood
    14. St. Edmund Campion
    15. St Mary's (Toronto)
    16. J Clarke Richardson (Jrs.)

    Honourable Mentions:
    Jean Vanier (Scarborough)
    Monsignor Johnson
    Holy Trinity
    Fr. Henry Carr B

    On the Radar: Birchmount Pk., St Elizabeth, Pickering, St. Roch, Pope John Paul II

    As I pointed out on the other thread a number of coaches did not vote for Fr. Henry Carr because they are competing in a Sr. league but participating in select Jr. tournaments. All coaches who voted for them picked them as #1.


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    Post by Coach Clement on Wed Nov 28, 2012 5:00 pm

    There were 10 coaches who picked them as #1. Three didn't vote for them at all because they considered them as Srs. I suppose - competing in the TDCAA West Sr. Division.


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    actionjackson
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    Post by actionjackson on Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:53 am

    Either Henry Carr A is (for the purpose of this poll) a senior team or a junior team.
    Make a decision and get all the voters on the same page!

    The poll would be a little more credible if its agreed that they are a senior team and they are omitted from the poll.

    Seeing Henry Carr A at #4 is funny when they are clearly the best junior team right now.




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    outside_stinga
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    Post by outside_stinga on Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:48 pm

    actionjackson wrote:Either Henry Carr A is (for the purpose of this poll) a senior team or a junior team.
    Make a decision and get all the voters on the same page!

    The poll would be a little more credible if its agreed that they are a senior team and they are omitted from the poll.

    Seeing Henry Carr A at #4 is funny when they are clearly the best junior team right now.





    Agree
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    Post by Coach Clement on Thu Nov 29, 2012 5:14 pm

    The people who take part are coaches many have been coaches for many years. I let them decide that issue for themselves. It was a split.

    Many felt that Carr was a Junior team I presume because they have Junior-aged players. A few felt that they are a Senior team because they have given up their Junior eligibility to compete at a Senior level.

    The Poll is what it is. I do not feel it is my decision to make.


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    Xavier Rimrocker
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    Post by Xavier Rimrocker on Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:21 pm

    Count me in the group of voters that will continue to include Henry Carr in the junior poll. They should not be punished for choosing to both improve their level of competition and also avoid the large number of blowouts that would have taken place in their junior league.

    The reality is that the vast majority of the voting is based on tournament results since very few top teams play each other in league games. Since the Carr juniors are playing in most of the top junior tournaments they should definitely be included. Even if they had played in the junior league no one would be ranking them based on those games.


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    silverthorn_coach
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    Post by silverthorn_coach on Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:21 pm

    I am one of the coaches who vote for the poll and I had Henry Carr as number 1. They will be ranked by me as a Junior team all season. My reasons for Carr to be included on the poll include:
    1) They are a Junior team with Junior aged players
    2) They participate in Junior tournaments
    3) They participate in Junior tournaments against junior teams and win. By very large margins I might add.
    4) For what I have been told, there are no Senior aged players on this Henry Carr team when they play league.

    With that being said, I will state right now, that if this team loses a league game to a senior squad, it will not affect their rankings negatively in my poll. My ranking is based upon playing Junior competition. This also means if they beat a good senior team in the league, it will not affect my ranking in a positive way for them either. Coaches are entitled to their opinion but I do agree that it should be decided whether or not Henry Carr will be considered a Junior program. I believe they should be.
    They should not be punished just because they decided to present themselves a challenge by competing at a higher level in league only. Again, this is only my opinion and I am only one of the thirteen coaches who vote.
    I also did not punish Bill Crothers, who have an advantage due to being able to obtain players from all over without penalties. They are an elite athlete school with incredible facilities. I would feel their case could be deemed better to argue whether or not they should be included because they have different rules than every other school on this list. Even though Crothers is in this position, I still ranked them number 6.
    I want to add that Coach Clement does an amazing job for basketball in this province and I feel privileged to be a part of his coaches poll group. I do think that seeing Henry Carr at 4 does look odd.
    Looking forward to posting my picks to Coach on Sunday.

    Cheers
    Coach B
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    bigred
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    Post by bigred on Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:58 am

    You cant have your cake and eat it.It is either or because when they win junior games everyone jumps for joy,But when they lose senior games everyone would say well they are juniors.
    I am not saying they are not good to play with the seniors, but if you want to play with the big boys you should be rank as a big boy.

    Silverthorn Coach this statement dont make sense " I will state right now, that if this team loses a league game to a senior squad, it will not affect their rankings negatively in my poll "
    To you coaches that vote i really hope you guys go out and look at teams and not just consider their names.
    Just my views.
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    Post by Xavier Rimrocker on Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:15 am

    bigred wrote:Silverthorn Coach this statement dont make sense " I will state right now, that if this team loses a league game to a senior squad, it will not affect their rankings negatively in my poll "

    It doesn't make sense if you selectively quote. He also wrote, "This also means if they beat a good senior team in the league, it will not affect my ranking in a positive way for them either."


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    2018 Junior Rimrocker Champions: St. Marguerite d'Youville
    GTA_BBall
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    Post by GTA_BBall on Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:48 am

    Yes, i agree. Carr should be included in juniors, and not counting wins/losses vs. seniors. But that would mean their ranking would solely be based on tournament results. however, if they beat all the best teams in GTA tourneys then they deserve the #1, regardless if theyre in the senior league or not.

    silverthorn_coach wrote:I am one of the coaches who vote for the poll and I had Henry Carr as number 1. They will be ranked by me as a Junior team all season. My reasons for Carr to be included on the poll include:
    1) They are a Junior team with Junior aged players
    2) They participate in Junior tournaments
    3) They participate in Junior tournaments against junior teams and win. By very large margins I might add.
    4) For what I have been told, there are no Senior aged players on this Henry Carr team when they play league.

    With that being said, I will state right now, that if this team loses a league game to a senior squad, it will not affect their rankings negatively in my poll. My ranking is based upon playing Junior competition. This also means if they beat a good senior team in the league, it will not affect my ranking in a positive way for them either. Coaches are entitled to their opinion but I do agree that it should be decided whether or not Henry Carr will be considered a Junior program. I believe they should be.
    They should not be punished just because they decided to present themselves a challenge by competing at a higher level in league only. Again, this is only my opinion and I am only one of the thirteen coaches who vote.
    I also did not punish Bill Crothers, who have an advantage due to being able to obtain players from all over without penalties. They are an elite athlete school with incredible facilities. I would feel their case could be deemed better to argue whether or not they should be included because they have different rules than every other school on this list. Even though Crothers is in this position, I still ranked them number 6.
    I want to add that Coach Clement does an amazing job for basketball in this province and I feel privileged to be a part of his coaches poll group. I do think that seeing Henry Carr at 4 does look odd.
    Looking forward to posting my picks to Coach on Sunday.

    Cheers
    Coach B
    GTA_BBall
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    Post by GTA_BBall on Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:52 am

    I still dont get how the coaches voted Vaughan, who just got beat last weekend by Eastern, is ranked above Eastern. Eastern didnt even play their star big man.

    Can somebody who voted Vaughan over Eastern clarify? I personally think this makes no sense at all.
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    Post by Coach Clement on Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:06 am

    There was one coach who didn't vote for Eastern at all. That was the difference.

    It may have been an accidental omission but that's how he voted.


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    Post by blackballer10 on Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:09 am

    Monsignor Johnson 76 St. Mary’s 47

    Johnson should be ranked higher then St.Mary's
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    Post by Coach Clement on Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:12 am

    The game was played after the poll was published.


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    actionjackson
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    Post by actionjackson on Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:35 pm

    blackballer10 wrote:Monsignor Johnson 76 St. Mary’s 47

    Johnson should be ranked higher then St.Mary's

    LOL! This is getting out of hand now! Calm down, its only one game and it's very early in the season. The process of coaches voting is a great way of doing the rankings. They usually get it right and in this case I am sure it would have been right if all coaches were voting on the same thing.

    I agree 100% with Coach Clement's and Coach B's earlier comments. I think the Henry Carr A team should be included in the poll. League games are irrelevant for the purpose of this poll unless two ranked teams face each other, which in Henry Carr's case is not likely.

    But, if all voters are not voting on the same thing, just leave Henry Carr out of the voting. Then after each weekend we can start a new thread to discuss where we would slot Henry Carr in the rankings if the were included.

    Coach Clement..... Thank you for your contributions to Hooptown and i can't wait for the next poll.
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    Post by Coach Clement on Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:17 pm

    Thank you for your support!

    We are trying to work out a solution to this problem.


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    Post by outside_stinga on Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:11 pm

    If we found out D'youville had a few exhibition games against senior teams because junior teams were not challenging them, would they be deemed unfit for the poll or the top spot? The critical information is their age more than anything. If they can be challenged on age discrepancies then that would be different. The sad part, if it isn't recruiting and stealing players from other regions, using overage or ineligible players, it's hating them for playing senior. Stop hating the program people. Trust me, losing to them sucks. But tip your hat to them when they win!
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    Post by Coach Clement on Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:18 pm

    Why hate on excellence?

    Fr. Henry Carr is raising the bar plain and simple. Its up to the rest to up their game!


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    Post by silverthorn_coach on Fri Nov 30, 2012 7:59 pm

    First of all, thank you Rimrocker for having my back. When I read "bigred's" statement, I actually rechecked my own because I knew I clearly stated it went both ways.
    Let's understand something here everybody. The toughest week to vote is the first one. We can only go by the results that we are aware of. Coach Clement has been very open as to what may have affected a teams ranking. The fact of holding it two weeks apart is a great idea. Two weeks of results will definitely make a bigger difference than one week. It educates us in the poll as to who is doing what. I admitted I didn't have Bishop Redding in my rankings because I was unaware of their results. Now that results have been posted, it helps.
    I noticed that already we are getting slack because one team beat another this week. Please keep in mind, that our votes were submitted Sunday and none of us are going to flood Coach Clement's email box with new rankings every day. These results will help for the next poll for sure.
    Also, I do not base my rankings on whether a player is missing or not. I have read that Eastern was missing their big man. Though his presence may be missed, at the end of the day, it is a team game. If Eastern loses a game, I don't look at whose missing or not but I do look at quality of opponent and games between teams on the poll or close to it. For instance, take the Johnson- St Marys case. I have to weigh things such as:
    Johnson went 0-2 at the Henry Carr tournament
    St Marys reached the consolation final of that same tournament
    St Marys beat Mother Teresa and St Mikes
    St Marys lost to Crothers by 73 points and D'Youville by 47
    St Mary's lost to Johnson by 29
    Johnson went 0-2 at the Henry Carr tournament and didn't make any playoffs in that tournament
    Johnson beat Redmond by 30 and St Marys by 29 in league play

    So, I don't just jot down a bunch of schools in 5 minutes and submit them to Coach Clement. I give the schools the respect they deserve and work out everything based on the info I have. I'm pretty sure all coaches involved in the poll do the same. Let's be honest, somebody is going to disagree with my rankings and others will think it's right. It's the nature of doing something like this.
    Please keep posting as many results as possible folks.

    Coach B
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    Post by Rexdaleredhawks on Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:13 am

    Monsignor Johnson Beat St Mary's #15 in a Season game 76-47
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    Post by Rexdaleredhawks on Sat Dec 01, 2012 10:13 am

    Monsignor Johnson Beat St Mary's #15 in a Season game 76-47
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    Post by therealdeal13 on Mon Dec 03, 2012 11:32 pm

    At first I thought it was a good thing that Carr juniors were playing senior for more competition and I understood the move. At first I also believed that they should be eligible to play in junior tournaments also but when others brought up the point I reconsidered some of my previous thoughts. Carr it is perceived by many to put winning at all costs above everything else. In the past Carr has always played some of their junior aged players at the senior level only to bring them down for junior tournaments so that they could win. In the past other schools have had juniors play at the senior level and never used their juniors to play at junior tournaments. I'll give a few examples. A few years ago a young Andrew Wiggins could have played for Vaughan in junior tournaments as he was junior aged but he played up at the senior level and helped Vaughan win OFSAA gold. This year St. Mike's junior team is not doing as well as it could because I believe they have 2 or 3 juniors playing up at the senior level. Eastern Commerce could use Justin Jackson to play at Junior tournaments to help them to do better but they chose not. Teams choose to play younger players up to help develop their players. I believed that it is noble for Carr to play their junior team up at the senior level in order to get more competition but then when they move them back down to play in junior tournaments that seems counter to what they say they are trying to do. I am torn on this issue really but I believe that you can't play both sides of the fence, you are either a junior team or a senior team, not both. Having said that I do not vote and understand why some coaches are torn on this issue and would not vote for Carr and why others would vote for them. I respect the views of everyone here on the board and enjoy reading the dialogue.
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    Post by Rexdaleredhawks on Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:52 am

    Monsignor Johnson Beat St.Mary 76-47 in League game last week
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    Post by silverthorn_coach on Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:36 am

    Hey "Rexdaleredhawks", what happened in the Johnson- St Marys game last week? What was the score? Who won? Did Johnson beat St Marys? Or did we not understand something the first 100 times you posted it?
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    Post by Henry Carr Basketball on Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:19 am

    What therealdeal13 posted is absolutely NOT REAL.

    In the past, we have brought up jrs for select tournaments for their benefit, but they remained jrs.

    Whenever we have brought up a jr permanently, he stayed sr and never played jr again, as Vaughan did with Andrew Wiggins.

    As usual, what's good for the goose is not good for the gander, but only when it comes to Henry Carr.

    Here is our feeling: Henry Carr Jr A is a junior team that made a sacrifice for the TDCAA West. Each player is in grade 9 or grade 10 and is 14 or 15 yrs old...thus, they are a junior team. Rank them or dont rank them, but it has to be consistent. Either every coach in the poll ranks them or nobody ranks them.

    Since 10 out of 13 coaches had the common sense to rank them #1, it seems that the decision is made. The other 3 coaches should either include Henry Carr Jr A in their list or have their votes discarded.

    In the future, if you are going to post information about Henry Carr, please be factually correct.

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