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    BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

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    thewayIseeit
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    BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by thewayIseeit on Wed Sep 28, 2011 1:32 pm

    http://www.thestar.com/sports/highschool/article/1059893--school-s-girls-hoops-squad-hits-road-toward-scholarships

    Bill Crothers has taken matters to a whole new level.

    For people who don't know Bill Crothers is an application based sports school funded by the average taxpayer. You have to apply to get into that school. Even students who live across the street have to apply to get in. The school has started to drain York Region of the majority of its athletes. They have the best facilities and openly recruit kids out of grade 8. That being said their girl’s basketball team (who has never won anything except a York title) has now gone and removed themselves out of league play and the possibility to compete at OFSAA. As if they are too good.

    They claim that the rational for this is that they are following the Canadian Sport for Life principles for training, rest, competing, etc. They are failing to realize is that they have started to undervalue High School Sport. They are now essentially running a Ontario Basketball Rep team during the high school season. The coach and AD at that school should look very closely into what they are doing, and how it may impact school sport (particularly in York Region) as a whole. The AD as a matter of fact was brought into Bill Crothers from Basketball Ontario. Do you think it is a coincidence?

    They may claim that it is unfair for those elite girls to play at the YRAA level, because they will simply dominate. Is this not recruiting? They have simply drained the talent from the surrounding area and placed it in one building. They have weakened school sport as a whole in the region. They have the arrogance to now think that they are too good to play against everyone else except in high level tournaments. They claim that they are preparing those girls to go to the US after high school. So what they are openly saying is that the high school system is inadequate and their system is better.


    I would ask all coaches, teachers, at the girls and boys High School level to seriously consider inviting Bill Crothers to your school. I wouldn’t attend their tournaments either if you care about school sport.
    There motives are very elitist and as far as I am concerned they are now the same as a PREP school catering to the elite. Maybe they should play in the NPSSAA against REDA, PHASE 1, Next Level, etc

    Those girls will never learn the pressure of playoff basketball and they will not improve because essentially they will be playing for nothing other than themselves.

    That’s thewayiseeit



    tart11
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by tart11 on Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:28 pm

    I agree. What's the point of just playing in tournaments. OFSAA is the best tournament you can be a part of at the girls level in Ontario, and they won't be there.

    They can still train the girls properly using the canadian sport for life. When I read the article it smelled of arrogance and ignorance on their part. Just another group of coaches attempting to invent the next best thing for basketball players so they can make it big. Why not dominate the girls high school scene if you are that good?

    thewayIseeit
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by thewayIseeit on Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:43 pm

    Not to mention they have a full time paid Athletic Designate position. This person is not a teacher. All other schools have a teacher volunteering to do this job.


    hmmmm

    Youngblood
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by Youngblood on Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:18 am

    To be honest, they do have an unfair advantage. Volunteer coaches have so many other things on the go that they can't spend the time a true paid coach can. Perhaps the successes are minimal now they may not be in the furure. As a high school coach I find it difficult at times to do it all, and the idea of recruiting out of area isn't really an option. If your program is strong enough just through sweat equity then you'll attract students that want to do well. If you have the unfair advantage of paid coaches, special programs allowing for modified days to accommodate for sport you're working in a priviledged environment and win, lose or draw, should play against those who share that environment.
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    acie earl 55
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by acie earl 55 on Fri Sep 30, 2011 6:27 pm

    Interesting topic - thanks for posting the article.

    Couple of issues here - but to clarify first:

    The coach is a teacher at the school - not a paid coach/handler.
    Stryker is the Manager of Athletics - That's not the A.D. - they manage the facility because there's some many user groups and all the elite programs that are and NOT part of the school. I've seen the job posting online before. Not to say this is fair or unfair - but AD and Coach seem to be Teachers who Volunteer just like any other school.

    The sport for life model isn't anything that you pay into - it's a philosophy of Athlete Development based on principles of at what age and level of competition should you coach your talent - whether elite or rec. It's free.

    http://www.canadiansportforlife.ca/
    http://www.basketball.on.ca/site/index.cfm?DSP=Chapter&ID=41

    It's an interesting issue - but in the end - how is this any worse than NEDA or REDA? It's a GTA All-Star team that's not going to OFSAA for the purpose of preparing star athletes for D1 or National Team play - Same as the old program that didn't work out. I don't believe the students in REDA and NEDA paid for their team - perhaps someone can clarify. It's still taxpayer money making the investment, just in York and not Hamilton. (Not sure if GTA tax money ultimately paid for those teams too through Federal or Provincial Taxes that fund sport).

    Is this a good program? Can this model work? Should it work? Does this question change if it was a boys team in the GTA? Is this best for the girls on the team? Is it good for the league that the top "15" best players aren't playing York Region Varsity league?

    This is no different than Birchmount CI - another sport powerhouse for years.

    thewayIseeit
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by thewayIseeit on Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:51 pm

    Acie Earl,

    Thank you for this response however you are missing the point. The manager of athletics IS very involved at the school level. Why don't other schools have a manager of athletics? If other schools have fewer facilities and fewer user groups then maybe a paid half time position for Manager of Athletics. Why the unfair advantage to every other school in that region? Ask any AD in any school region if they would love some help. This model wreaks of arrogance and flies in the face of equity.

    High School sports should be supported to its fullest at all levels here in Canada. We should NOT be removing students from the system in order to supposedly help them get better (who is the authority on this). This is not sound philosophy. I understand the ratio of practice to games should be 4 to 1 or so, and specific instruction takes time to develop. I will even agree that often the lure of winning causes athletes / players to fall back into bad habits. I agree with this. The solution is coaching training, not the SYSTEM itself. You can run a solid High School program and maintain sound principles of training for improvement.

    The bigger issue here however, is the beginning of the systematic assault on our high school system. It may seem like its "far fetched" or "silly" but really it isn't. And again; there is nothing to suggest that you can't run a good program (following Sport for Life principles) in the current high school system

    The introduction of Canadian Prep schools (Phase 1, Metro Prep, YAACE Prep, REDA, Next Level, etc) and their attachment to other high schools is wrong on so many levels. Ex. If a student fails a class at their local high school (say a Phase 1 player attending Vaughan Road academy) but paid $4000 to join Phase 1, would the Phase 1 coach prevent that athlete from competing in a tournament, even if they knew the kid failed? Would the coach offer a refund? Would the coach even know what is going on at the school?

    The point is that our High School basketball system is the only thing from preventing these leeches from creeping up and infiltrating innocent students from the privatization of sport. Where winning and false hoop dreams lure kids down the wrong path. I have said it before and will say it again, Prep schools ARE Private schools. They are taking kids out of the public system.

    What the people at Bill Crothers are don't realize (and I will chalk it up to inexperience) is that what they are doing is essentially starting a conversation. The conversation is one in which people consider the option of privatizing the precious and very fragile public system. So why privatize the students who are funded by taxpayers? This is really what it is. People do things for their own ego, agenda, upward mobility, etc and fail to realize the negative effect their programs have on the system as a whole. The people at Bill Crothers should be ashamed of the decision they have made. Especially by running to the media to promote this disgusting programming decision.

    People should clearly REJECT Bill Crothers from competing in ANY school tournament. In most schools, except from the other slimy ones that recruit, students have to attend the school near their place of residence. Bill Crothers brings kids in from all over the GTA and beyond. How is this just or fair? How is it that the York Region school board paid almost $40 million dollars of taxpayer money to open this school but only lets certain kids in. Why didn't they use this money to upgrade the facilities at their other schools? Maybe 20 schools at $2Million a piece? How many students would that serve?

    40 Million dollars of taxpayer money but the girls won't compete in the Public system? REALLY?
    At least if they are going to openly recruit, and field such a strong team (or so called strong team) then they should have the respect to play against schools in the region. They should win by huge margins and expose the school for the unfair advantage that it is/has.

    Maybe they should win OFSAA by 50 points so people will finally open their eyes to this place. Most school don't even have a large gym, but this school has it all.

    This to me sounds like a publicly funded private school.

    Here are a few more questions for people to consider.

    1) What are the demographics of the school?
    2) Do they accept students with low grades?
    3) Do they accept students who have behavioural problems?
    4) What do people from the surrounding area think about the school?
    5) What do teachers and staff members in that school board think?
    6) What does OFSAA think?
    7) Are there any students on this site who have been rejected by this school? if so what was there experience like? what reasons were they given? what were their marks like?


    These are good questions to ask a publicly funded application based school.
    I would love to know the answer to these questions? I hope people will weigh in.


    that's thewayIseeit


    Last edited by thewayIseeit on Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:14 pm; edited 2 times in total

    tart11
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by tart11 on Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:11 pm

    thewayIseeit...I agree with you that the high school system needs to stay intact and actually be more developed....BUT the school boards and governments do not support elite athletics to the degree that prep schools and other private ventures do.

    The school admins and school boards only want to see teams run on paper so the parents are happy. Quality of athletic teams in the school system is not valued so quality coaches and athletes are leaving to find other opportunities. I still don't agree with this but there is not much we can do from the sidlines.

    thewayIseeit
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by thewayIseeit on Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:25 pm

    tart11,

    thank you for that reasonable and very intelligent response. That is my point however. We should be looking at ways from improving the High School system, not running from it for greener pastures. (as I'm sure you would agree)

    In Europe they largely don't have a school sports system (i.e., high school basketball teams) and rely on professional club teams with paid coaches, feeder systems, long term development, etc. That model is good for Europe (well at least for now because the European Economy is almost in the tank) but the Government's in Europe heavily funds those programs. The funding models for athletics however is changing in Europe as people wake up to difficult economic times. How long can that support last?

    Here in Canada the government doesn't provide this type of funding for Club teams. The facilities we have for basketball players are in the school system. Where do the OBA's happen? In permitted schools.
    We should value the schools and improve that system. Not remove our students from it.

    Essentially Bill Crothers is trying to follow its own European Club model but using Taxpayers dollars to do it in a publicly funded school. I wonder what taxpayers would think about this?



    Last edited by thewayIseeit on Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

    thewayIseeit
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by thewayIseeit on Fri Sep 30, 2011 10:30 pm

    In fact I would lobby the Provincial government to make it mandatory for students who are enrolled in a publicly funded institution , who use publicly funded facilities, who attend publicly funded classes, and who wish to participate in sport to HAVE to participate in their publicly funded school region.

    What do others think?

    Mu2
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by Mu2 on Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:12 am

    I'm not takening any sides on the actual school, but what makes this any different than schools that are considered arts schools that out of boundary kids have to apply for? (they take kids out of other schools) As well as IB schools that take kids from out of region (they are takening smart kids from other schools. Just a question.

    But I don't agree with their basketball model.

    Tri-Facta
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by Tri-Facta on Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:12 am

    ThewayIseeit

    Your passion for the quality of youth basketball is what is needed and all the points you have made are very valid, in fact I believe most of the points made out here are extremely valid and its just disappointing that those who can make a difference remain silent or have self-fulfilling agendas. I am very vocal about basketball in Canada, and even more so in Ontario. I know a hand full of us that have been up through the system here in Canada (not just Ontario) and has had the opportunity to see how things are done 1st hand in other provinces and countries. Now I know for a fact that there are some very influential people reading these posts so I hope this gets the same attention. I am patiently waiting for the opportunity for the right forum (not here) to stand in front of men/women and ask them to change their focuses on the direction of where we lead our youths. I will not knock what Bill Crothers is doing because I see this as another attempt at doing something good. I do not see any malicious intent as I do not believe any of us are trying to ruin our kids lives, even these lop-sided attacks on Grass roots. I would not defend Grassroot's methods but I think its unfair to make 1 person the focus of all thats wrong with hoops here. Everyone has their agenda and some methods are certainly questionable but because there is no governing body in Canada for any sport this is why we can not have decent international showings. Everyone wants to have their own empire. The biggest culprit of all is Basketball Canada. The fact that in over 30 to 40 years they have failed to unify this country on the hoops scene is an indication that the focus is very much still misguided or no guidance at all. It is my opinion that Ontario, the biggest hoops hotbed in the country has probably one of the least accommodating High school athletic systems in the country, and that to me is very troubling. If you are unfamiliar with what they do in most other provinces you would never know this, since Ontario wins most national tournaments. We have the numbers over the other provinces and we have the talent and right now things are turning into a feeding frenzy since finally the AAU ideology is rapidly growing up here and people have figured out it is not difficult to start an AAU team/program. Finally the fact that within Ontario we have 2 systems rivalling each other (HS vs OBA) shows just how far off we are from everyone being on the same page in this country. We can not be like Europe but Basketball Canada is asking us to train our kids like the Europeans; yet we have to fight for facilities and community backing. We want to filter our kids through the school systems like the US but Basketball Canada has no relationship with these kids at the grassroots level(well they are attempting to change that only in the past 5 years). In Canada basketball is confusing, we have a bit of both systems but not our own. There needs to be 1 system and 1 approach. The level of beauracracy in that organization is so poisonious it is a detriment to basketball development. It is too centralized of an organization and they have no periphial vision on the basketball scene as a country. So why not do what B Crothers is doing. There is nothing to stop them and stopping them would only bring us back to square 1. Endorsing the Ontario high school system which is an empire all on its own. That is very scary because if they are telling kids that physical education is mandatory only in grade 9 then who are these people we are putting in charge? I think B Crothers addresses this in their mandate and the Ontario school board's approach on physical activity is probably a big reason that spawned B Crother's existence.

    tart11
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by tart11 on Sat Oct 01, 2011 12:41 pm

    totally agree with tri-fecta....basketball canada needs to unify everyone....

    thewayIseeit
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by thewayIseeit on Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:50 pm

    Tri-Facta,

    Thank you for that very intelligent response. You make very valid points.

    The larger issue regarding the High School System vs. The OBA system is essentially the Private system vs. the Public system debate.
    The OBA is so poorly run and so money driven that it makes me sick to my stomach. I would ask anyone that cares about basketball in this province to attend a U11 game between two rival programs. Let’s say Scarborough Blues vs. Blessed Sacrament. You would see the most despicable behaviour by parents, coaches, players, handlers, etc. Parents yelling at parents because they think there kid is the next MJ, Parents yelling at their kids for not being good enough, Parents yelling at refs for making the “wrong call” , coaches who are rude and obnoxious to each other, the manipulation of rules sets to gain an advantage. In the OBA there is no overarching structure to guide reason and appropriate behaviour amongst all stakeholders. I know that the OBA publishes rules and guides for coaches, parents, spectators, etc, but these are rarely followed.
    In the HS system there is accountability to the school, administration, teachers, grades, other students, reputation of the school, etc. In other words there are structures in place that do not allow for the type of behaviour that is a detriment to young people.
    To that end, the coach and Manager of Athletics at Bill Crothers ARE heavily involved in the OBA system. The removal of the girls from the HS system is an attack. The faulty logic that Canadian Sport for Life principles have to be separate from the HS system is ridiculous. That being said the girls’ season is relatively short and I understand that it some cases it may not allow for proper training prior to the season. The contradiction here however is that the Bill Crothers school year begins the first week of August, giving them a full 2 months of prep time prior to the season. (another unfair advantage for this school)

    So my first solution to addressing this issue in our system is to align the HS seasons so that they run for a full year. i.e., Girls and Boys basketball, volleyball, etc should run full year round. Training starts in September and peaks in March. (April-August should be used for proper rest, training and sport specific practice) In other words proper periodization.

    Now on to Basketball Canada. Basketball Canada is a very arrogant organization, that does nothing to better the game in Canada. Look at the history of the organization. They poach players who are already good and try to claim them as their own. The list is huge. Was Basketball Canada at any High School event? Ever? Have they ever been at OFSAA to support Grass roots basketball? Have they ever conducted free clinics to Elementary schools to expose kids to BBALL at an early age? Have they offered coaching training to people in the school system? NO, NO, NO. They talk a good game but really do nothing.

    Think about it, if Basketball Canada poured some money/time/effort into training people in the school system, they would reach thousands and thousands of kids. They would begin to foster a culture of basketball players who are being trained properly by knowledgeable coaches. The schools have the facilities, and the structures in place to hold kids accountable.

    Listen to this clip form Mike McKay who was one of the directors of coaching development for Basketball Cananda. He talks about the old NEDA program (which is similar to what Bill Crothers is now doing) Listen very carefully to the last minute especially.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTVLcCTJzDk



    In the last minute he clearly states that we should have our athletes/bball players peak for Provincial, National team, etc time frames, and NOT the High school system. Again a very European mentality. If this is not an assault on the HS system I don’t know what is. How many kids will make the Provincial /National / Cadet teams? Basketball Canada poaches maybe 100 kids per season, to play on their teams?(not sure of the exact number) What about everyone else? What about the so called late bloomers? The Green Bananas? What BS. In comparison; how many kids should be looking to peak for the playoff’s in their school system? More kids should be looking to align their training to the School year. This is how you prepare to play in the CIS, NCAA, CCAA, JUCO, Professional leagues, etc. The OBA system should be abolished so that kids can train during the real OFF SEASON. i.e.,spring and summer
    Once again Basketball Canada is doing things for their own best interest and not for what is best for the majority of kids.

    Imagine if Basketball Canada was involved at the school level? How many kids would they reach? Here is a statistic from the Ministry of Education in Ontario.
    “As of 2009-2010, there were 4,020 elementary and 911 secondary schools in Ontario”
    Assume for arguments sake that each Elementary school had two girls teams and two boys teams (Grade 4-6 jr and Grade 7-8 sr) and each High School team had Four teams (Jr Girls, Jr Boys, Sr, Girls, Sr. Boys) and assume that each team had 12 players. How many players is that in Ontario?

    Elementary Players – 4 teams x 12 players x 4020 schools = 192000 players
    Secondary Players - 4 teams x 12 players x 911 schools = 43 728 players
    This is how you build a grassroots movement.


    So my second suggestion for making our system better is to train coaches to be involved in the school system using the Principles of Sport for Life. To reach out to kids at an early age and offer them support. To take the coach from Bill Crothers and other who are knowledgeable and have them train other coaches in the elementary / High School system, to start a real grassroots movement.

    Basketball Cananda named Rowen Barret as their director of youth player development. Who has he ever developed? What has he ever done for young people? Why would Canadian kids who have gone through the system on their own be attracted to playing for our National team? Why? Basketball Cananda should involve people who have been proven to help kids get better (at an early age) while maintaining the discipline and accountability that should be mandatory when dealing with young people. Identify guys who love to coach and train kids and bring them on Board. Offer people incentives to help train kids and other coaches. Take a real interest in this country. Not the “WIN NOW MENTALITY” which is what Basketball Cananda does. (I have news for them they aren’t winning now) Stop riding the coat tails of guys like Steve Nash, Jamal Magloire, Tristan Thompson, Corey Joseph, Myck Kabongo, etc, etc and tell people that “we are getting better” Those guys became good despite Basketball Canada. Why do people think Magloire never wanted to play for Basketball Canada? He felt no connection to an organization that did nothing for him as a youngster. They tried to grab him when he became good.
    They need to stop promoting Band-Aid solutions to all that is wrong with BBALL in Canada.
    I hope everyone know understands my frustration with Bill Crothers, OBA, and Basketball Cananda and the entire Prep movement as a whole.
    These places do NOT help our Country get better. They serve as band-aid solutions, to a fragmented system and promote their own agenda.


    That’s thewayIseeit

    tart11
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by tart11 on Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:15 pm

    Again totally agree.

    The high school system has all of the possible players in Canada. Basketball Canada needs to get in the schools. High schools also have resources: free gyms, organized leagues, tournaments etc.

    In order to coach with Basketball Canada you just have to be an ex player, get certified. I truly believe that a good coach works his way up like Roy Rana...learn the game in high school, improve your coaching skills and tactics and move up the level of coaching.

    Tri-Facta
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by Tri-Facta on Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:12 am

    Gentlemen, it certainly sounds like we are in agreement of where things are broken, and that is the kids are being used as pawns in the grand scheme of things. I agree that doing things through the high school system would work vs the club teams, but yes that system would need to be a full season system. However thats not to say that the club system wouldn't work either. As I pointed out having both rival each other is and has been very counter-productive to long term development. This country needs to decide on their system from bottom up.

    What I don't agree with is calling out Mr. Barret, its people like him that need to be involved (not for money). It could be Michael Jordan there, but as long as you put anyone into a broken system, it will make for unpredictable returns.

    The other point I would not agree with is that Basketball Canada should put money into the school programs. Well in theory I agree, but the reality is they themselves are hugely under funded and barely scrapes by each year. Lets face it gentlemen, we live in Canada and the community support is directed to that other winter sport (and I don't mean Skiing... Very Happy ). However this does not take Basketball Canada off the hook, they still should have a good plan in place and they do not. Let me give you 1 example of this organization's short-mindedness and lack of vision. HOOPDOME - Why did it take a group of independants(some being American support) to come up with this "unique facility"? The hidden agenda being also because the Raptors came to town and they recognized the need for people in this city to familiarize themselves with the game of basketball, why? in order to sell more tickets. Where was a facility like this say 15 years ago? I remember 20 years ago going to Long Beach California to a centre that had 12 courts just for hoops, and even before that in D.C. a 24hr ball drop-in centre. Then come home here to the YMCA and then getting kicked out because there is an aerobics class with 4 women that have the floor next, so out goes 15-20 kids that have a few hours of energy to burn but nowhere but the streets to kill time. Now Basketball Canada didn't have the money to build a hoopdome 15/20 years ago but they certainly have the influence and could get the backing easier than any other basketball entity had they the foresight for something like this even when I was in grade school 30 years ago. A continued yearly government submission for a Hoopdome type facility in all major cities from the moment team Canada beat the US at the university games in the early 80's would have been perfect timing to make a pitch like that. That would have been a good start and imagine how many kids or teams would be occupying those facilities across the country. This would also put the supposed governing body of basketball for this country in a position to dictate how these facilities would be used. "Lets give priority to High school tournaments" (if thats the system we go to) or "Allow club team to practices and have tournaments" (if that would be the system we go to). Guys lets face it the ball has been dropped here, by who? Community, Government, Basketball volunteers? This is why I say it can not be pinned on any one person. Look at how much Soccer has grown in this country, it has not surpassed hockey but it has passed hoops. In the past 10 years I can't count how many new fields I have seen sprout up all over the GTA. Soccer has always been here, but now on a much bigger scale and its everywhere. Dont get me wrong, there is dissention amoung the ranks in the soccer world, but it all over all the money that sport is generating.

    I propose this: They should bring this Mike Mckay, an ObA rep and us onto Off The Record, and get the issue broadcasted. I stand behind what I say and write and would love if we got that opportunity. Promotion of ideas is how revolutions begin and hoops in Canada need a revolution.
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    Xavier Rimrocker
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by Xavier Rimrocker on Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:12 pm

    thewayIseeit wrote:So my first solution to addressing this issue in our system is to align the HS seasons so that they run for a full year. i.e., Girls and Boys basketball, volleyball, etc should run full year round. Training starts in September and peaks in March. (April-August should be used for proper rest, training and sport specific practice) In other words proper periodization.

    While the idea is a noble one, who will pay for the extra gyms required in many schools, especially in the suburbs where most of the population growth takes place? It's hard enough right now to accommodate basketball, volleyball, badminton, wrestling, cheerleading, table tennis, and cricket, along with indoor pre-season soccer, rugby, track, lacrosse and baseball training. How are we going to accommodate them if all of these sports are moving to a year round model?

    It's also going to require a large increase in the number of refs in sports that previously had separate girls and boys season at a time when many regions have a shortage. What about schools that have a hard time finding separate boys and girls coaches for these same sports?


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    gtahoopstar
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    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by gtahoopstar on Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:37 am

    Alot of valid points, but again, made by people with aliases sitting at home behind their computers.

    What is your name? Your involvement in basketball? What are you doing, short of banging out advice on your keyboard?

    It's all fine and good to say "I stand behind what I write", but unless you are out there preaching the same mantras in real life and actually DOING something about it, and willing to put your real name on the line, you're just another armchair quarterback. We don't need more voices, we need more DOERS.

    And with regards to OFSAA and whether or not Canada Basketball is at OFSAA every year, they are there. Personally saw Canada Basketball coaches in the gyms scouting players. Maybe you don't know who they are, but they were there.

    By the way, not even American school systems have official year-round basketball programs. On the books in most states they can't start practice officially until the week after US Thanksgiving, and most play their first game in December. Of course, no school really goes by that rule, they hold practices and play scrimmages from even late August onward. But then again, so do we. One I'm thinking of in particular practices all summer, into September and onward. Right here in the GTA and I know it's not a unique case. Normal high school.

    tart11
    Senior

    Number of posts : 937
    Registration date : 2008-11-29

    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by tart11 on Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:46 am

    Valid points by gtahoopstar as well. I think only positive talk and points will help resolve issues. BUT I don't think most of us are in leadership positions with Basketball Ontario or Canada so there isn't much we can do. I am an old high school coach and local ref, by no means can I change the landscape.

    I agree that someone has to set some boundaries. I think its a good idea to ban high school practices until a certain day. BUT we should also have the club teams under similar restrictions.

    I think we should have October-February be high school season. Majority of teams are done at the start of February. February to May should be club season. Late May to August should be AAU. If all these programs supported each other, they can utilize more resources and support each other instead of fighting for kids and trying to always develop a new program. Then we can talk about details.


    For instance, anyone can start a skill development academy. Why not have basketball canada certify "skill development instructors for basketball". These coaches would have to receive training and then apply to get a license to start an academy. If basketball canada did this then they can somewhat control who coaches the kids. There are too many entrepreneurs trying to make a business. i have no problem with coaches being paid, but they have to have credentials. Anyone can receive certification if they sit and listen to the material.

    Then what about canadian prep teams. Well, again, why not certify them and have them get a licence. We can apply rules like, only 5th year seniors can attend who have graduated from high school and are looking to maybe upgrade. As well, these people deal with kids on a daily basis and there is no agency to make sure they don't abuse the system. Same think of clubs. I've heard of basketball ontario clubs that charge kids a ridiculous amount of money with alot of promises and then these people don't come through. No refunds provided. Who keeps that thief in line? School teams and teachers have to answer to principals and the school board. Well, by reading the Toronto Star latelly....different discussion.

    Bottom line the system could improved, but not without leadership and funding, which we are lacking.

    gtahoopstar
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 23
    Registration date : 2011-09-18

    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by gtahoopstar on Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:27 am

    tart11 wrote: I am an old high school coach and local ref, by no means can I change the landscape.


    Frankly, so long as you don't depend on that reffing income, you are probably one of the most qualified to start talking these things publicly, attending the meetings, lobbying for change, etc. It seems that many who are in positions to change the landscape are also really dependent on that landscape ie school coaches, coach and/or parent with a kid in the game, etc., and therefore reluctant to go to the wall for what they believe in. Then it becomes a 'don't bite the hand that feeds/rock the boat too much' situation.

    The ones who have no school or kid affiliation are trying to do something, but them we call mavericks and are quick to serve them up on a platter when whatever they try to do goes wrong. Can't have it both ways parents and kids feel the current school (and OBA) model is failing them, they are going to look elsewhere. It's just natural.

    Youngblood
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 62
    Registration date : 2010-01-28

    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by Youngblood on Mon Oct 10, 2011 11:17 am

    From where I stand,
    Basketball is better than it has been on the high school level. The issue is that our players are all over the place. If we collected them in one area they'd be amazing. After speaking to a number of D-1 coaches Toronto is the #1 basketball recruiting city in North America. The issue is the above, it is the same issue that pains Basketball Canada.

    Our best players aren't playing for us, and to be honest can you blame them? They pay money to represent Ontario and Canada, C'Mon? That alone says a lot.

    We are stuck in between two different systems. We look to Europe and are influenced by the Americans. Really we are a hybrid, I feel that's why so many of our players do well. The problem is we fight our own success. The OBA has been good for youth development. For those who complain about the crowd and parents have never been to a youth hockey game or watched games in Italy, or other places around the world. This isn't an excuse for bad or ugly behavior, but, sports create passion that must be controlled. We could use a little more passion for basketball here.
    We are products of our own success. We've been developing great players who are being seen down south and being scooped up by Prep's and universities offering scholarships and fame. Why wouldn't an Ontario player go, what is being offered here? AAU offers a chance to play against the best and to be seen on a larger stage, what is the alternative?
    It seems like Basketball Canada has been blindsided by the level of talent we have and is ill-equipped to deal with it. What is their 10 year plan for these people. Why aren't our best playing for our National Team? They don't because they don't feel obliged to.
    We have 3 entities that are at play, OBA, AAU, and high school ball. They need to play together for the benefit of all of the players involved. Although I don't believe that Crothers should play in the same league as the average high school I do think that what they've done isn't bad. They're trying to address an issue and see an opportunity to meet the needs of elite athletes. The problem is that the Ontario school boards and Universities haven't had the same mindset. As long as they don't, don't be surprised when our kids leave, schools like Crothers and Birchmount thrive and continue to win, and none of our best will play for our National teams. They have to feel like they need to give something back. Right now, some players feel like they had to fight a system that limited them to make it. Right or wrong it's the consequence for our inaction.
    If we don't move someone else will. They were ready for our kids, we weren't.
    We can't use 20th century ideas on our 21st century players. These kids are more savvy than we are, but we refuse to meet them where they are, we want them to meet us where we 'we're'.
    Let's be proactive, not reactive when it comes to basketball.

    Oh and btw, Rowan B is what's good about Basketball Canada. He's only as effective as the powers he's been given to work with.
    avatar
    CoachImgrund
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 265
    Registration date : 2008-08-04

    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by CoachImgrund on Mon Oct 17, 2011 8:50 pm

    Just to clarify some points on Bill Crothers participation in the YRAA...

    1. Bill Crothers was first allowed to participate in the YRAA on a 'trial' basis. Representatives from Bill Crothers stated that they would not have their athletes compete in their 'dominant' sport. That is, a player on the provincial Ontario basketball team, would not be playing basketball for this school in the YRAA. This was gone against when Lindsay Shotbolt AND Mariah Nunes helped lead Bill Crothers to a YRAA championship in 2010. BOTH of their major sports were basketball. If you want to argue that in 2011 that won't happen again, maybe you can explain how the Colts starting QB THIS YEAR is Aaron Stora-Nelson - a big-time Canadian football prospect!! And in June 2011, the Colts won their first ever rugby title with help from Andrew Coe, who is a high-performance athlete for Rugby Ontario and is on the provincial team. Give it up already Crothers - you're not kidding anyone.

    2. The headquarters for the York Region Athletic Association was moved from Richmond Green to Bill Crothers a few years back. Steve Shantz and others from the YRAA have nothing to win and only everything to lose if Bill Crothers is not allowed to participate in YRAA sports. When I've brought up that I was disappointed in their participation, my comments went absolutely no where.

    3. I'm still confused how OFSAA allows Bill Crothers to participate. They have specific rules against recruiting. I live a 40 minute drive from the school and my LOCAL NEWSPAPER has had ADVERTISEMENTS about this school posted in it. If this isn't recruiting, I don't know what is. If you look at track and field for instance, the 2011 OFSAA 3000 m champion came from Holland's Landing - but went to school at Crothers in Markham. Quite a distance between these two cities...
    avatar
    Peel Fan
    Sophomore

    Number of posts : 580
    Registration date : 2008-07-31

    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by Peel Fan on Mon Oct 17, 2011 9:58 pm

    CoachImgrund wrote:Representatives from Bill Crothers stated that they would not have their athletes compete in their 'dominant' sport.

    Birchmount made the same promise years ago.

    They have petty good track and volleyball teams. I wonder why...

    Dunbarton Coach Deighan
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 100
    Registration date : 2009-12-14

    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by Dunbarton Coach Deighan on Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:40 am

    What if each school board designated one school as the "sports school" (with appropriate additional sports funding i suppose) just like with Crothers, and then these schools play in a province wide "super league". I guess travel costs would make it not feasible, but it might work.

    Downside is, the regular leagues would weaken a bit and that might be detrimental to the development of players at the non-sports schools.

    basketball_atr
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 145
    Registration date : 2008-11-27

    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by basketball_atr on Wed Oct 26, 2011 5:01 pm

    When I first heard of Bill Crothers I figured they would dominate but this is just total arrogance. When I saw they were running their Junior Boys volleyball team out as an OVA volleyball team, I thought they were using their resources perfectly and the point of the school was truly coming through, that being a year round school where student athletes can train and compete year round. But neglecting the chances to compete against other student-athletes in order to compete against only athletes is just a waste of resources.

    KThornley
    Freshman

    Number of posts : 1
    Registration date : 2012-10-25

    Re: BILL CROTHERS - The demise of high school sports

    Post by KThornley on Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:25 am

    I just stumbled across these posts and I have to say it's pretty disheartening to see so many people trying to tear down a school and a program that is TRYING to do their best in providing elite development for students and create an environment that supports the values of Canadian Sport for Life.

    It would probably bother me more if the majority of you negative posters actually had the facts straight but you are obviously missing a lot of information. So, first, educate yourself on the true goals and ambitions of this school and then try and realize that they are striving to provide something beneficial for their STUDENTS. Is that not the key word? Students?

    It is all being done for the kids. It should all be done with the kids in mind. I think that is a huge aspect of the arguments being ignored.

    There are too many egos out there that should not be interfering with the welfare of the Bill Crothers student body.

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