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    Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

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    Grizzlies Coach
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    Registration date : 2013-09-12

    Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by Grizzlies Coach on Fri Dec 06, 2013 5:58 pm

    So today I coached a team on route to a blow out loss.  Been there, done that... on both ends of the spectrum, not a big deal.  
    The most important part, all of my roster got to see significant time in a meaningless "friendly" 3rd game of a tournament since both teams had lost their second round match ups.  Great for all of my guys to get competitive in game against people that are not their teammates.

    I brought it to the attention of the opposing coaching staff long before the game started that I was going to be using my entire bench.  I was commended on my strategy for getting everyone involved in a game that does not mean much.  I actually started a majority of my 2nd stringers, and finished the game with my 3rd stringers.  

    But here is where I have issues.... to continually press against a team that you are up against by 20 at the 1/2... and by 30 after 3 quarters is a little excessive.  To be constantly shooting 3 ball after 3 ball and pushing the ball every chance you get when up by such an amount, I have to say is pretty ridiculous.  What ever happened to the working on your offence when up by 20 or more? How about taking your starters out and letting the bench players play against others, that have the same team role as they do.  

    The press actually did not come off until under 2 minutes left in the game, because FINALLY... the starters were pulled, and we were down 40 points.  Yes that's right 40 points.  38 seconds left, they are still shooting 3's on us... while my team is doing their best to play good defense.  Not until 17 seconds are left does a somewhat respectful decision get made of dribbling out the clock as my team continues to play tight D.... we get the steal and score on the fast break lay up.  Just because your dribbling the ball, does not mean we should let you.  As the team that is down, we are still to play defense.  

    And now the opposition feels they have the right to get upset and calls a time out.  Upset that I didn't show the game some class and integrity.... that just leaves me speechless.  Needless to say a play is draw up by the opposition, we get the steal and rush down the court and hit a buzzer beating 3.  

    My guys leave smiling and have their heads up that our 3rd stringers got some meaningful minutes and hit some good shots.

    Talk to the other coach after shaking hands about the very things I mentioned in this post....... and he tells me that's basketball... we were playing hard.....wow... that's basketball.... if that's what basketball is becoming (which it is not) then I feel very bad for those that are involved in such team situations.  There is playing hard, then there is complete disrespect as far as I am concerned.

    Because some lessons are greater then the winning and losing of games.  Respect, integrity, sharing, communication, and get everyone to play, grow, and get better at the game they love... basketball.

    I wrote this rant because unfortunately I am hearing such stories more and more often of these overblown scores..... coaches.... something has to give.... remember, you are educators first.... well at least I hope you are.

    All the best with your seasons.

    bigred
    Freshman

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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by bigred on Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:32 am

    I agree with your rant.
    This is what i notice there are some coaches that would teach the game and there are some that would teach to run up and down the court.

    There is a sublect missing in schools i have seen students with university degrees lacking this subject.
    It is called "COMMON SENCE".
    So if students are lacking this i am sure some coaches are lacking it as well.

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    panathas
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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by panathas on Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:40 am

    we were down by 40 at the half one time. Kids were crying on the bench cause of the frustration and nothing was going right. We were criticizing and ridiculed for deciding to turn the experience into a joke and have some fun with it. We played 5 on, 5 off, every 4 minutes. Had the posts bring the ball up and the guards play in the post, and just showed the kids that it wasn't the end of the world. "Disrespecting the game" was what I heard hurled my way. So the solution was to sit there for an entire half and watch my kids crumble? We ended up having a fun 2nd half, and we won our tournament the next week.

    Another time we were down by 50 and the other team kept pressing us. Everyone in the gym was appalled, but the other coach was clueless. I mentioned it to him after the game and he said he didn't realize that was a problem. He was just a parent helping his son's team. Had never coached before or played basketball, so didnot realize a problem.

    Unfortunately coaches are not happy winning by under 20 anymore.

    So sometimes common sense does not exist. I am sure you'll bounce back coach. Good luck the rest of the way.


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    observer
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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by observer on Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:39 am

    Interesting discussion.  Perhaps what the coach who is up 40 and still has his starters in there, with three minutes left, in what is essentially an exhibition game, doesn't realize, is the impression his own bench players are developing about him.

    When I coached, I always saw exhibition games as an opportunity for everyone to play significant minutes.  As members of the team, who practice hard, and are committed to the team, there should be some reward.  Those kids are giving something up to be on the team -- a part time job, time with their families and friends, a time they could be doing homework, or playing other sports.

    One of my first blow out losses, when I played high school basketball 30 years ago, taught me a bit about sportsmanship.   Our team was 10 and 0 in our league, came to a GTA tournament, and lost by 40 in our first game.  The opposing coach rotated in three sets of guys, and gave them all relatively equal playing time.  Had the starters remained in we probably would have lost by 50 or 60.  There was no showboating, or piling it on, on the other team's part, even though they were wiping the floor with us.

    Some of our guys also got a good lesson in humility, as we had been winning some of our games by those same margins.  On one occasion, we had a team down 96 to 40 something with a minute left and our best player asked our coach to go back in so we could score 100.  The coach let him.  We didn't get to 100, and I can remember that at the time, sitting on the bench as a player, thinking something was wrong with that request and even more so with the decision.  As mentioned by previous posters, it lacked common sense.

    As the original poster mentioned, you aren't just coaching basketball, you are teaching life lessons and working to develop people (i.e. everyone on the team).  This is something that may be lost in some cases, in the heat of competition.

    Fortunately, I think these situations, like the one mentioned by the coach in the first post, are the exception, rather than the rule.

    balleronthecomeup45
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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by balleronthecomeup45 on Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:30 pm

    FIRST OF ALL.. if you decide to play your bench and not play the guys you need against a good team, you WILL get your butt handed to you.

    Secondly, every team is out to make a statement, I watched the games from the stands and I noticed Louis Arbour picked up from half with 12 minuets left in the game. David Suzuki has polled for D1 yet they are complaining when they get it given to them by a Division 2 school. If you come to play be ready to compete not taking shots at anyone but you always gotta be ready to play.

    Lastly, Instead of making post, you and your team should be working on what went wrong in that game.. that is THE only way to avoid these problems..

    Good Day, Coach Shen

    BallinIsAGrind
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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by BallinIsAGrind on Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:37 pm

    Listen coach, you are a Tier 1 team and you got beat by 40 points by a Tier 2 team!! Your goal is to stop the other team from scoring, if you can't do that then whats the point of playing. Every single player on Louise Arbour played. They did not press the whole game, they only played half court man to man. Instead of complaining, why don't you get your team better. A Tier 2 team beat you guys by 40, don't complain. Basketball is not for sore losers. Promoting all this fair play is cool in house league but not in serious competition. Its a man eat man world, if you are not eating then you will be eaten. You go out there everyday and ball until they clock hits 0. Don't complain after you got beat by 40 by a Tier 2 team! Simple.

    BallinIsAGrind
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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by BallinIsAGrind on Fri Dec 13, 2013 6:45 pm

    You made your decision to keep playing defence when Louise Arbour was going to dribble out the clock, so in turn Louise Arbour made a decision to keep playing offence. Nothing wrong with that.

    bigred
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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by bigred on Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:24 am

    balleronthecomeup45 wrote:FIRST OF ALL.. if you decide to play your bench and not play the guys you need against a good team, you WILL get your butt handed to you.

    Secondly, every team is out to make a statement, I watched the games from the stands and I noticed Louis Arbour picked up from half with 12 minuets left in the game. David Suzuki has polled for D1 yet they are complaining when they get it given to them by a Division 2 school. If you come to play be ready to compete not taking shots at anyone but you always gotta be ready to play.

    Lastly, Instead of making post, you and your team should be working on what went wrong in that game.. that is THE only way to avoid these problems..

    Good Day, Coach Shen

    If you go back and read the coach post you would see "meaningless "friendly" 3rd game " he is not complaining about the lost but the manner in which the game was played.Some coaches do not look down the bench and this is why some players going on to college and University struggle because they dont know how to play team ball or be on a team in general.

    You should educate yourself about tier 1 and tier 2 and why

    bigred
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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by bigred on Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:06 am

    BallinIsAGrind wrote:Listen coach, you are a Tier 1 team and you got beat by 40 points by a Tier 2 team!! Your goal is to stop the other team from scoring, if you can't do that then whats the point of playing. Every single player on Louise Arbour played. They did not press the whole game, they only played half court man to man. Instead of complaining, why don't you get your team better. A Tier 2 team beat you guys by 40, don't complain. Basketball is not for sore losers. Promoting all this fair play is cool in house league but not in serious competition. Its a man eat man world, if you are not eating then you will be eaten. You go out there everyday and ball until they clock hits 0. Don't complain after you got beat by 40 by a Tier 2 team! Simple.

    Comments like this from a student tells what the future holds.

    It comes back to common sense and what we are learning today. A few months ago i had no Sympathy for the 2 students at Louise Arbour surfing (idiots) and after reading your comments it strongly suggest that this school needs motivational guidance.

    Basketball is a team sport it also means having respect for your opponent.

    Tell your coach or show him my post tell him Bigred said he is a IDIOT. Last season did not have any tier 2 so all teams was in one division and it was a sorry site to see. You do not know what it really means by saying "it a man eat man world" because after all the money your parents spend and all the education you may end up with nothing to show for it.

    tart11
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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by tart11 on Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:55 am

    Tier I and Tier II in Peel is stupid. Its a coaches decision which tier to go to. So teams like Louise Arbour, Central Peel and Heart Lake should be playing tier I, but those coaches are too afraid to play the top teams so they go to tier II so they can stack some victories and feel good about them selves. As well, I think if you want to compete for AA or AAA you have to go to tier I. Not sure though.

    Sometimes blowouts cannot be avoided, but alot of times the blowout can be minimized, was not at the game can't say anything.


    BallinIsAGrind
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    Registration date : 2013-12-13

    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by BallinIsAGrind on Sat Dec 14, 2013 1:56 pm

    A team is not going to stop playing their style of basketball. The defence's job is to stop them. All these posts sound like new style of basketball where everyone has to be friends on the court. Having respect for your opponent doesn't mean to take it easy on them...that would be even more disprect. Would you want a team to stop playing because they feel bad for winning by so much? I personally would feel better if the team kept playing so I can learn from the tough loss and take it as a learning experience. Louise Arbour needs motivational guidance because they are a tier 2 team and beat a tier 1 by 40? How about Aquinas beating Ching by 55 or DY girls beating Castlebrooke by 102? Come on Big Red, you are really blaming a school for actions like that....think again

    bigred
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    Registration date : 2009-11-09

    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by bigred on Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:58 pm

    BallinIsAGrind wrote:A team is not going to stop playing their style of basketball. The defence's job is to stop them. All these posts sound like new style of basketball where everyone has to be friends on the court. Having respect for your opponent doesn't mean to take it easy on them...that would be even more disprect. Would you want a team to stop playing because they feel bad for winning by so much? I personally would feel better if the team kept playing so I can learn from the tough loss and take it as a learning experience. Louise Arbour needs motivational guidance because they are a tier 2 team and beat a tier 1 by 40? How about Aquinas beating Ching by 55 or DY girls beating Castlebrooke by 102? Come on Big Red, you are really blaming a school for actions like that....think again
    Read carefully or you rather me text it, Motivational guidance is not just for the basketball but for the dumb crap that is coming out of that school. This is a basketball forum so i rather not list them here.

    Dy girls beating castlebrooke by over 100 points was a mistake that a rookie outside volunteer coach made.If you know your facts the Dy principal and their athletic dept made changes and corrective action to make sure this does not happen again. Dy even posted the score 22-2.

    There are schools with many good coaches NOT JUST BASKETBALL have the correct understanding of their games and know what to do best.
    No one is asking any team to roll over. If your team is that good why you are in tier 2 .

    BallinIsAGrind
    Freshman

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    Registration date : 2013-12-13

    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by BallinIsAGrind on Sat Dec 14, 2013 6:59 pm

    "Dumb Crap" comes out of every single school, so why is one being singled out? Don't associate outside incidents with sports incidents. THEY ARE NOT RELATED! Louise Arbour is a no name school and was at the bottom in almost every sport. Then suddenly they start to win and people are saying they win by too much? And you didn't comment about Aquinas beating Ching by 55 and they are both tier 2? So what did you want Louise Arbour to do? Win by 30? Win by 20? Every single player played and they did not press the whole game.....
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    Xavier Rimrocker
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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by Xavier Rimrocker on Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:21 am

    tart11 wrote:Tier I and Tier II in Peel is stupid.  Its a coaches decision which tier to go to.  So teams like Louise Arbour, Central Peel and Heart Lake should be playing tier I, but those coaches are too afraid to play the top teams so they go to tier II so they can stack some victories and feel good about them selves.  As well, I think if you want to compete for AA or AAA you have to go to tier I.  Not sure though.

    Teams declare a level and then they are ranked after the regular season, with tier 1 teams being ranked ahead of tier 2. Only the top 8 4A and the top 4 3A and 2A make their respective playoffs. If a tier 2 teams makes it into the playoffs for 2A or 3A then they cannot compete in the tier 2 playoffs.


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    Grizzlies Coach
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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by Grizzlies Coach on Sun Dec 15, 2013 4:26 pm

    THE PARADOX OF OUR AGE

    We have bigger houses but smaller families;
    more conveniences, but less time;
    We have more degrees, but less sense;
    more knowledge, but less judgement;
    more experts, but more problems;
    more medicines, but less healthiness;
    We've been all the way to the moon and back,
    but have trouble crossing the street to meet the new neighbor.
    We build more computers to hold more information to produce more copies then ever,
    but have less communication;
    We have become long on quantity,
    but short on quality.
    These are times of fast foods
    but slow digestion;
    Tall men but short character;
    Steep profits but shallow relationships.
    It's a time when there is much in the window,
    but nothing in the room.

    The Dalai Lama

    balleronthecomeup45
    Freshman

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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by balleronthecomeup45 on Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:32 pm

     No Please elaborate...Are you saying Louise Arbour is wrong for losing a 21 point lead due to refs and coming out the next day beating a team and dribbling out the ball is wrong? this has nothing to do with fast foods and bigger houses... REGARDLESS if your NOT going to play your starters because it is not important in a meaningless game, BE PREPARED to take a beating a loss is a loss. ive lost by alot been disrespected but it has only taught me to go out harder.... PS lOUise Arbour was NOT being coached by their head coach he was away because of Family matters and they where being coached by somebody who has nothing to do with their basketball program
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    observer
    Sophomore

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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by observer on Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:19 pm

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year, gentlemen.  May all your three point shots drop, except, of course, when you are up 30, in garbage time  Very Happy

    balleronthecomeup45
    Freshman

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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by balleronthecomeup45 on Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:58 pm

    STOP CRYING- you said the game meant "nothing" why are you on Hooptown making a rant about it... obviously meant something

    rerun
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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by rerun on Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:04 pm

    HEY! Can't we all get along! LOL
    It's high school basketball!

    coachc
    Freshman

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    Re: Rant on Basketball Coaching Ethics

    Post by coachc on Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:29 am

    I have been on both sides of this. The facts are it is an opportunity regardless of what side of the score you are on. IMHO the better coaches tend to understand this and those who don't tend to be the ones running up the score. I have no problem with anyone losing by 40 but if my team is up by 40, my players will be working on those parts of the game that we do not generally get to work on against other teams. This is an opportunity for the coach to enforce good team basketball and fundamentals. For example, many teams that get up by that much tend to be able to score at will, but can they do so as a five man unit rather than simply beating their man off the dribble? I often tell my teams that once they establish the half court offense, they are not allowed to dribble (or can only dribble in certain situations depending on what we are trying to develop) and that we are looking for a particular type of shot. I do not tell my team not to work hard as they now have to work hard in a way that may take them out of their comfort zone a bit. In this sense, this is an opportunity to continue to develop your players and the team concept in basketball and the players need to remain focused and work hard. No player will push a fast break at this point in the game as we are usually working on our half court sets. Is it about respect. Sure it is, isn't it always? However, my goal as the coach is to develop my players and my team and that is what we intend to do every time we step on the court at practice, in a close game, or in a blow out.

    If my team were on the other end of the score, my approach is the same. I am looking to develop my players and team. I do not focus on what the other team is doing other than to try to adjust to it so that we can work on things. If the team continues to press (I would not do it but some might), then it is an opportunity to work on the press break, passing, cutting hard to the ball, dribbling under pressure etc. While it sucks to sit through a blow out, the coach is comprising a list of things to work on in that game, future games, and practices. If the reason why we get blown out is because we could not handle pressure, my practices will reflect that and I believe the players will want to work even harder at these practices to avoid going through that again. It is also great motivation to continue to work on defensive responsibilities as usually those are the main reasons why teams get blown out as well.

    The coach that tries to blow a team out loses site of his or her role which is to develop the team and players. Work some of the depth guys in with the regulars so they can learn from them on the court. Work on systems and fundamentals that you know your team is lacking (trust me, every team can work on something). The coach that worries too much about what the other coaches are doing (running up the score etc) is also missing an opportunity to develop his players and team as they are focused on the wrong thing. Still, the game is about respect and you respect the game, your opponent, and your teammates if you dont focus on the margin of victory but how you continue to play the game and develop.

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